I want to clarify for myself once and for all next moment. Is it possible, when drawing up an estimate calculation for materials and equipment that will be delivered according to the specification to the customer, to allocate a separate local one, and all work on the installation of materials and equipment should be estimated in the next local one? On the one hand, this is logical, because. allows you to quite easily separate the cost of equipment, materials and work on their installation and commissioning from the construction and installation works. But on the other hand, for the second time in my modest practice, I come across a requirement that the materials be indicated next to the prices for their installation. The second time and the second time this is demanded by the gentlemen from the Siberian federal district. Are these their local habits or am I missing something???
MDS 81-35.2004 IV. PREPARATION OF ESTIMATE DOCUMENTATION Local budget calculations (estimates) 4.10. The cost determined by local estimates (estimates) may include direct costs, overheads, estimated profits, equipment, furniture and inventory. Direct costs take into account the cost required to perform the work: material (materials, products, structures); technical (operation of construction machines and mechanisms); labor (funds for the remuneration of workers, as well as machinists, taken into account in the cost of operating construction machines and mechanisms). As part of direct costs separate lines the difference in the cost of electricity received from mobile power plants in comparison with the cost of electricity supplied by the Russian energy system and other costs may be taken into account. Overhead costs take into account the costs of construction and installation organizations associated with the creation general conditions production, its maintenance, organization and management. The estimated profit includes the amount of funds necessary to cover the individual (general) costs of construction and installation organizations for the development of production, social sphere and financial incentives. The accrual of overhead costs and estimated profit in the preparation of local estimated calculations (estimates) without dividing into sections is carried out at the end of the estimate calculation (estimate), following the result of direct costs, and when forming by sections - at the end of each section and in general according to the estimate calculation (estimate ). In connection with the questions that have arisen, amend the Methodology for determining the cost construction products in the territory Russian Federation(MDS 81-35.2004) and paragraph 4.10 of the Methodology shall be stated as follows: 4.10. "The cost determined by local estimates (estimates) may include direct costs, overheads, estimated profits, equipment, furniture and inventory. Direct costs take into account the cost required to perform the work: material (materials, products, structures); further according to the text of this paragraph.So these are not local habits of gentlemen from the Siberian Federal District.
"may include" , or may not include. Maybe - it can, but it is not necessary at all.
Well, after all, the logic in determining costs is completely lost. If I specify the equipment with a separate local estimate, a separate lok. estimate - materials, then I will get the cost of equipment and the cost of materials needed for installation. And in the next local I will review all the installation work and get the cost of construction and installation work.
This is only your vision of the issue. In any case, direct costs take into account the cost of materials
for Rulers: I understand your problem, ... yes, indeed, if you scatter work and equipment into different ones, then it’s easier to work with the results later ... I wonder, what is your estimate program ?? smeta.ru allows, without any difficulties and problems, to allocate the cost of materials and equipment from direct costs, no matter where they are, at least under the price, at least in another section / estimate
My program is called a wizard. And there is no way to do this. at least I don't know how. Tried everything but it doesn't work. The management will not allow me to switch to another program, because they don’t want to spend money on the estimated program anymore
This is how it's always done with hardware. The cost of equipment is taken into account separately from the cost of installation and is not included in the acts of work performed. According to the materials, this is not lawful, the cost of materials (deliveries of the contractor or customer) are included in the cost of the work performed and cannot be separate for them.
I agree. Well, can you scatter it into sections in one local? Allocate one section for materials that will be delivered to the customer, and the second section for installation work. Otherwise, I have to do the pimp almost by hand
So it is possible
yes, it seems that in any program you can make a selection of materials from pressing a couple of buttons
what if not a secret. I know how to extract data on unaccounted materials and unaccounted equipment in order to reflect them in the trailer. But only now in the summary estimate calculation the total for the trailer will be assigned to one column. And how to divide the total into installation work and the cost of equipment and materials in the SSR???????
This has been accepted in Gazprom for several years. All Gazprom institutes compose SD in this way, and sometimes they require Contractors (if the contractor composes) But usually they still stand out in a separate "Materials for the supply of the customer." They need this so much to take into account the cost of the customer's supply materials - they have a kind of reporting there. I think there is nothing special about this - nothing contradicts the rules of the estimate, and the convenience is undeniable. This is even useful for the contractor (it helps me a lot in planning).
Why is it illegal? Everywhere in all the estimated "saints" it is written: "The cost of materials must be taken into account in budget documentation". ESTIMATE DOCUMENTATION This requirement was met. The materials were taken into account. So what, what is a separate estimate? Nowhere is it written that it is impossible to separate installation and the cost of basic materials in different ways.
I do not agree with everything MDS 81-35.2004 4.10. The cost determined by local estimates (estimates) may include direct costs, overheads, estimated profits, equipment, furniture and inventory. Direct costs take into account the cost required to perform the work: material (materials, products, structures); technical (operation of construction machines and mechanisms); labor (funds for the remuneration of workers, as well as machinists, taken into account in the cost of operating construction machines and mechanisms). Edition In connection with the questions that have arisen, amend the Methodology for determining the cost of construction products on the territory of the Russian Federation (MDS 81-35.2004) and paragraph 4.10 of the Methodology to state as follows: 4.10. "The cost determined by local estimates (estimates) may include direct costs, overheads, estimated profits, equipment, furniture and inventory. Direct costs take into account the cost required to perform the work: material (materials, products, structures); further according to the text of this paragraph, i.e., materials are included as a component of direct costs
At first glance, the remark is reasonable. I only propose to take a second look at this quote from MDS-35. "The cost determined by local estimates (estimates) may include direct costs, overheads, estimated profits, equipment, furniture and inventory. Direct costs take into account the cost required to perform the work: material (materials, products, structures); " Dividing the installation and the cost of materials by 2, this point of the MDS is not violated at all, the direct costs have been and remain. They didn’t do anything with them - they didn’t distort them, they didn’t put them in another head of the SSR, they didn’t reduce them, they didn’t add them. They were simply divided into 2 piles, reformatting the usual design of estimate documentation. Well, what is broken? It turns out, nothing. Only it became more convenient to work (for this customer).
I completely agree with Marie (another box of chocolates from me). Moreover, in MDS quotes, you should pay attention to the word "CAN", which is far from the word "SHOULD".
Agree with Marie. In addition, recently reworked at the request of the customer (semi-state structure) for a breakdown of the installation of windows and the cost of structures. (and there was not one, but from the beginning of the year and urgently, because the commission arrived from Moscow, + acts). Second, we are designing substations by order of power engineers. As part of the SSR, there is one local for the purchase and delivery of transformers and outdoor switchgear (without installation, it comes with a separate estimate). And then they conduct tenders for the supply of equipment and separately for installation on the basis. So there are precedents.
I can’t understand why it’s more convenient, then, when closing acts, if it doesn’t close in full, the calculations must be done twice. I can admit, as a separate section in the . But if the customer so requires - it can be done, if only he (the customer) smiled, and the contractor was satisfied. And one more quote from MDS 4.4. In local cost estimates (estimates), data are grouped into sections by individual structural elements of the building (structure), types of work and devices in accordance with the technological sequence of work and taking into account the specific features of individual types of construction. For buildings and structures, division into an underground part can be allowed (works " zero cycle"") and the above-ground part. The local estimate calculation (estimate) may have sections: for construction work - earthworks; foundations and walls of the underground part; walls; frame; ceilings, partitions; floors and bases; coverings and roofs; filling openings; stairs and platforms; Finishing work; various works (porches, blind areas, etc.), etc.; for special construction works - foundations for equipment; special grounds; channels and pits; lining, lining and insulation; chemical protective coatings, etc.; for internal sanitary and technical works - water supply, sewerage, heating, ventilation and air conditioning, etc.; equipment installation - purchase and installation of process equipment; technological pipelines; metal structures (associated with the installation of equipment), etc.
For us, for example, because it is more convenient - that under different contracts, delivery and installation are carried out. And even in different years maybe. And you don’t have to worry about one estimate - there is a supply contract with estimates for OiMAT, there is an installation contract with estimates for construction and installation works. Sections, in particular, can be formed by launch complexes. Otherwise, those who are not aware of the project and the contract with the calendar plan will be stunned to make samples according to the stages of supply. If it works out at all.
Well, as a rule, when organizing construction, it is wiser to purchase equipment and materials that will be required during construction (I’m talking about electrical installation work only) at the very beginning. In some cases, the customer is satisfied with this approach: first you make acts for the purchased equipment and materials, and the next time for work. Although I admit this is fundamentally wrong and not a single self-respecting OKS and UKS or UKSIR will miss this. In this case, it is easier to make an act 100% upon completion of all work. At least it has always been possible to negotiate this with OKSs
Oh, how convenient. 1. When planning an object, you can immediately see how much money we need to buy materials, and how much money the customer will supply us with the material (by selling, of course). For the advance payment of the contractor - there is clarity, for planning the financing of the customer, etc. in general, for the contractor's internal economic calculations for the facility, it is very convenient. 2. And most importantly, convenience - when calculating the appreciation index. As a rule, according to the materials supplied by the customer, he is healthy, and ours (the contractor) is smaller. If there was a joint, it would be high. And everything is so easy and simple - the construction index is great (says the customer), and I told him - "it is so great because of your materials."
Why can't this be done as part of one? Is it difficult to make a selection of customer materials? I have long understood why it is so profitable for the contractor - after purchasing the materials, you can quickly sign up for this and get money.
Of course it is possible. Hard. It is much easier if you get SD, and everything is already on the shelves. What is the customer's supply, and what is ours. There is no need to waste time and, comparing with the separation sheet (this sheet must first be agreed upon, signed, etc.), allocate these same materials. Everything has already been agreed upon and formalized. Okay, one more. Well, you will spend twice as much time. And if there are 50 of them in the object for one such subchik like us (usually happens). And for the customer, the amount is several hundred? Well no. With competent technical supervision of the customer (usually in Gazprom, after all), such things rarely happen. And if they pass, then for political reasons - with the knowledge and consent of the customer. By the way, often it is the customer who needs it (they have some peculiarities with the development of limits).
And I always single out unaccounted materials in a separate section, but when compiling a Consolidated Estimate or an object calculation, these materials are added to the materials considered in installation work and, accordingly, are included in installation work. This is also done because limited costs (winter appreciation, etc.) are considered as a percentage of construction and installation works (excluding equipment)
So it is the customer who immediately assigns the materials to a separate one? Interesting... So, it's convenient for him, but as they say: "there is no arguing about tastes"...
Well, yes, that's what I wrote. The customer ordered all his departmental design institutes to do so. And the design and estimate documentation is issued in this form. And if the contractor draws up, then the Customer also sometimes asks to do this. And we, the contractors, are happy - it’s convenient for us. The conversation, however, was about materials .... And about the equipment - all the more convenient it is in a separate one, and for this reason too. Not only Gazprom is doing this anymore, I see such SD more and more often. Well, I myself came to this many years ago (conveniently). Well, maybe, really, there is no arguing about tastes. And on the contrary, I don’t understand what is more convenient all in one - work, equipment, and materials of any supply ..... A long "tail" (eyes run wide) and that's it. Well, it's a matter of taste.
In general, it was not possible to come to a consensus, as I understand it. If the customer will be capricious and demand to indicate the supplied materials directly with the installation prices, then you will have to obey Or try to put pressure on the logic and hint that it is more convenient
This is the opinion we have come to. This is most likely not a whim of the customer, but his requirement for compiling a SD
and we, for example, almost always work this way, with the exception of some "inadequate customers"! make up for: 1) installation; 2) Poland; 3) materials unaccounted for by prices; 4) this equipment does not almost contradict the price structure of construction and installation works, determined in accordance with MDS-35! Do you know how accountants tremble at the sight of such a structure?! - songs are sung! and the customer? - the same! from happiness! everything is clear and visible! in general, the use of almost everyone in our time is of an applicative nature! so it turns out ... the base was invented oh, how long ago, and the equipment is modern ..... and what happens? Here's the more or less logical way to do it! sheep to sheep, and kittens to kittens!
I agree to points 1, 2, 4. But why separate 3) materials unaccounted for by prices After all, the costs are different for the same material (for example, concrete)?
Local estimates- primary budget document compiled for certain types of work (costs) based on the volumes that were determined during the development working documentation. The need for a local estimate calculation arises in cases where the final costs and scope of work have not yet been determined and need to be clarified, or when they cannot be determined accurately enough during the design process, which implies clarification of the volumes, methods and nature of work already in the course of construction.
Grouping by sections when drawing up a local estimate
The construction local estimate is a table indicating the list of works, the code of these works and the costs of implementation. A document is drawn up (in the general case - for one type of work), based on:
- initial data of the customer,
- nomenclature and quantity required according to the working documentation of equipment (inventory), as well as data of drawings, statements of volumes of construction and installation works, equipment and materials, defective statements, specifications,
- the scope of work and the main decisions on the organization of installation, taking into account explanatory notes to design materials
- estimated standards in force at the time of preparation of the document,
- market prices (tariffs) and transport costs for equipment, inventory, furniture.
Local estimates are compiled for general site works and for buildings (structures).
- Public works. The estimate is created on vertical layout, for the installation of networks, roads, MAFs, landscaping, etc.
- Buildings and constructions. The estimate is prepared for construction work, including special, for internal plumbing and electric lighting work, for electric power plants, installation of equipment, instrumentation (instrumentation), low-voltage devices, inventory, etc. When designing by several organizations at complex facilities and in the process of formation estimated cost start-up complexes, it is possible to draw up several local estimates for one type of work.
The data in the estimates are grouped into sections according to different principles. This can be a grouping by structural elements of objects or by a technologically determined sequence of types. construction works taking into account their characteristics. Estimated calculations for buildings and structures allow for the division into zero-cycle works - the underground part and the above-ground stages. Sections are detailed depending on the typology of work (costs).
So the section of construction work will include calculations of earthworks, construction of foundations and basement walls, frames, ceilings, floors, roofs, load-bearing walls and partitions, etc. , brickwork, protective coatings, etc. Internal plumbing work includes an estimate for plumbing, sewerage, ventilation, air conditioning, heating. And the equipment installation section - process pipelines, metal structures related to the installation of equipment and the installation of process equipment itself. 
Ways and methods of calculation
The general initial data in the preparation of local construction estimates are:
- A statement of the calculation of the scope of work or a resource statement of design and regulatory materials.
- Local specific conditions for the construction of facilities.
- Pricing conditions agreed with the customer.
- Design data of the construction organization, which includes labor costs, machine work time, etc.
For carrying out, 4 methods are most often used, the first two of which are the main ones.
- resource method. It is defined as an estimate calculation in real (current) or projected prices of all resources that are needed to determine the estimated cost of construction work. The method is widely used as giving the closest approximation to the real market situation, since the cost of resources is calculated based on the current operating this moment prices. The method provides for the creation of 2 documents: a local resource sheet and a local resource estimate (budget calculation).
- Basis-index method. When making estimates in this way, the base prices are multiplied by certain updated index coefficients, which allows them to be brought to the current level. The updated index tables are intended for the preparation of investor documentation, for interaction between contractors and customers in the formation of proposals for prices and calculations at facilities with an unbroken construction cycle, as well as for an enlarged calculation of investments and planning.
- Resource-index method. It is a combination of resource methodology and the use of a system of indices for estimated resource prices.
- A method based on consolidated standards. The methodology also includes the use of indicators of analogue objects.
To simplify shift calculations, there are special programs(for example, "Estimate Calculator", "WinEstimate"). Depending on the calculation methods used, the results will present various forms of a document that differ in tabular composition. The calculation made using index-coefficients reflects the value of the coefficients in separate columns of the tabular section. Since estimates are made at the base or at the current price level, the table header indicates which price level was used for compilation (with the date entered). The estimate, an example of which is given below, is a sample calculation for general construction work:
With a relatively small range of resource indicators, Form 4 is used, and with a relatively large range, Form 4a is used. At the same time, a local estimate compiled according to the resource method involves the creation of a local resource statement (form 5) and a local estimate calculation.
Reflection of the cost of resources in the local estimate documentation
The cost of work (costs) in local estimates can be given in two types of price levels:
- Basic level. The indicators are determined on the basis of the estimated norms and prices in force at the time of the preparation of the estimate.
- The current price level. It is also called predictive, since the purpose of its reduction is to establish the most relevant real prices either at the time of drawing up the estimate documentation, or directly at the time of construction.
The peculiarity of bringing prices according to databases is that in order to work with these databases, they must be updated by indexing. Prices are taken from the relevant collections, where for each position (line) of the local estimate, the code of the norm is indicated. It is formed by sequentially adding numbers to the cipher from the numbers of the collection, section, table in the section and the number of the norm in the table.
The rate here is the cost various works(construction, installation, etc.), which is set per unit of measurement and fixed on a specific date.
And unit prices are the totality of resources necessary to perform any type of work presented in monetary terms. Such unit rates, depending on the type of work, are combined into collections, which present prices for construction, repair, installation, commissioning, and maintenance.
Prices, as part of the system of estimated rationing and pricing in construction on the territory of the Russian Federation, are developed at the base price level, the state of which is fixed as of January 2000.
Collections of prices for construction and repair work, commissioning, installation of equipment according to the stage of application are divided into the following groups:
- Federal Unit Rates (FER). On their basis, sublevel regional collections are developed. They contain prices for all work that is carried out on the territory of the Russian Federation. Developed at the price level of the Moscow region - the 1st base region.
- Territorial unit prices (TER). The collections include unit prices applicable for construction in local conditions within the region - an administrative entity of the Russian Federation. The information reflects the level of salaries in construction, materials, operation of mechanisms, etc., established for the region. In this regard, the TEP more accurately reflects the cost of construction work in the region.
- Estimate-normative bases.
Thus, if the region has been approved and territorial prices are in force, then when drawing up estimates using the base-index method, TER-2001 is used. If such regional rates are not approved, the rates of the federal level FER-2001 are used. When using the resource method in the preparation of estimates, GESN is used (short for State elemental estimated norms). Depending on the type of work, a marking letter is added to the main abbreviation - GESN:
- GESNr - for repair,
- GESNm - for assembly,
- GESNp - for commissioning.
For the actual construction work, GESN-2001 is used. However, neither GESN nor FER and TER apply to work related to maintenance buildings, including network engineering, security and fire alarm systems, and those systems that are not related to construction and installation work. The cost of such work is determined by local or departmental standards for technical operation, which are approved, respectively, either by local governments or ministries and departments. The procedure for applying these price lists is within the competence of the executive authorities of the federal level and the enterprise operating the engineering system.
